tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8030144.post112491045821375317..comments2023-10-29T11:50:25.742+02:00Comments on My Obiter Dicta: On Messianism and Its DiscontentsJeffrey R. Woolfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11315625918870195028noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8030144.post-1125416056629680122005-08-30T18:34:00.000+03:002005-08-30T18:34:00.000+03:00OK. Don't say it. I see no necessary contradiction...OK. Don't say it. I see no necessary contradiction. BTW, setting up a refuge for Jews, in EY, where Torah can flourish with Divine Help is a great religious goal. Period. Do you mean that if, as R. Hillel said, there will be (GF)no messiah that doing this has no meaning? Was the first Shivat Zion a messianic movement? I really don't think so. What if we do end up living in history for all time? Having a country is not worth the sacrifice. I fear that staking too much on redemption makes Torah an Ahava ha-Teluya be-davar.Jeffrey R. Woolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11315625918870195028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8030144.post-1125232843256502292005-08-28T15:40:00.000+03:002005-08-28T15:40:00.000+03:00jeffrey -- calling the state of israel, created by...jeffrey -- calling the state of israel, created by jews risking everything to create a land where they can determine their own destiny [god assisting, of course] the reishis tzemichas geulaseinu does not leave a lot of room for passivity. that is certainly not 'pashut peshat' of the expression, certainly not in the context of jewish statehood.<BR/><BR/>by 'messianist' i have assumed the meaning of the belief in the imminent arrival/nascent arrival of the messiah. this is nowhere required by rambam. possibility of arrival, yes. that he will come, no.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8030144.post-1125223003139887672005-08-28T12:56:00.000+03:002005-08-28T12:56:00.000+03:00"the Haaretz Tabernacle Stereo Choir (Schocken, Sa..."the Haaretz Tabernacle Stereo Choir (Schocken, Samet, Levi, Golan, and Strassler) and its sub-woofers (London, Tirosh, Man, and Baram)"<BR/><BR/>-Love it!tafka PPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17166682612446711810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8030144.post-1125033859026864712005-08-26T08:24:00.000+03:002005-08-26T08:24:00.000+03:00I agree and disagree. First, Leibowitz' philosophy...I agree and disagree. First, Leibowitz' philosophy is, imho, very problematic religiously and borders on religious fascism. Second, I alluded to the idea of mitzvot becoming idolatry by my reference to the Nahash ha-Nehoshet. However, I do not believe that anyone worships EY, and the idea of innate sanctity is a normatively Jewish one, as extensively developed by the Brisker School of Analysis. Third, Rambam did not list livibng in EY as one of the 613. He DID pasken that one must live there. The argument between him and Ramban is one of classification, not one of essence. Fourth, Habad is in the midst of its owbn mesianic crisis of faith. Fifth, the only people who think Israel wants to conquer all of Arabia are the Arabs.Jeffrey R. Woolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11315625918870195028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8030144.post-1125013791349234842005-08-26T02:49:00.000+03:002005-08-26T02:49:00.000+03:00"To see holiness as the essence of some object exi..."To see holiness as the essence of some object existing in the world of nature or of history is to raise that thing to the level of the divine-and that is idolatry," Yeshayahu Leibowitz.<BR/><BR/>Messianism, as I understand it, and as I think the term is being used by the media, is when one sees the LAND of Israel as an object that is holy and desirous of worship. My belief is that it is the study of Torah and performing of mitzvot that are most important. Not the location where these mitzvot are performed. <BR/><BR/>Rambam did not even include living in Israel as one of his 613 mitzvot. A messianist is one who believes that a Jewish government must rule on all land from the Nile to the Euphraites. Chabad definitely falls into this category.Ittayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02508597128498611055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8030144.post-1124982833048564062005-08-25T18:13:00.000+03:002005-08-25T18:13:00.000+03:00Excuse me. The phrase 'Reshit Tzemihat Ge'ulatenu"...Excuse me. The phrase 'Reshit Tzemihat Ge'ulatenu" is a very vague, intentionally vague, phrase that can accomadate both messianic expectation and messianic passivity. You can say the same about Mamonides' doxology. Every traditional Jew, on some level, is a messianist. That does NOT mean that he subscribes to the politics of irrationality (Arthur Herzberg's phrase).Jeffrey R. Woolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11315625918870195028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8030144.post-1124972981647528492005-08-25T15:29:00.000+03:002005-08-25T15:29:00.000+03:00every shabbos, virtually all rz shuls say reishis ...every shabbos, virtually all rz shuls say reishis tzmichas geulaseinu.<BR/>assuming congregants are not lying and believe and understand what is being said, they are all messianist. <BR/><BR/>personally i am not a messianist, but calling a spade a spade, this is what most rz believe, often to an extreme. i think there is a strong undercurrent of this in the whole disengagement thing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8030144.post-1124957720958561432005-08-25T11:15:00.000+03:002005-08-25T11:15:00.000+03:00See this line from Haaretz's editorial today. At l...See this line from Haaretz's editorial today. At least they are willing to call a spade a spade:<BR/><BR/>נראה שהם מסרבים להפנים את העובדה, שבקרב הנוכחי על זהותה של מדינת ישראל כמדינת חוק חילונית (שבו המאבק על ההתנחלויות הוא רק ביטוי חיצוני) ועל עתידה הגיאוגרפי והדמוגרפי - הם נוצחו.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8030144.post-1124952000124229122005-08-25T09:40:00.000+03:002005-08-25T09:40:00.000+03:00I agree with your observation, but it doesn't expl...I agree with your observation, but it doesn't explain the global, vicious (bordering on hysterical) use of the term. I was stressing the automatic equation of Religious Zionist=Messianic (which is ludicrous, aside from some aging students of Rav Zvi Yehudah Kook, from whom leaderhip of the RZ community should be taken).Jeffrey R. Woolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11315625918870195028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8030144.post-1124941378109558872005-08-25T06:42:00.000+03:002005-08-25T06:42:00.000+03:00You're missing the point. "Messianism" is the bel...You're missing the point. "Messianism" is the belief that the Messiah is coming soon, this generation, so we don't need to plan for the future. It's ridiculed because there have been so many messianic groups for millenia and none of them have been right. There's always a first, I suppose, but one could argue even if the messiah did come this generation the current incarnation of messianism just got lucky.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8030144.post-1124934582647953562005-08-25T04:49:00.000+03:002005-08-25T04:49:00.000+03:00The "messianism" that has bothered me in the news ...The "messianism" that has bothered me in the news images this past week is the clearly chabad messianism-- the flags w/the crown, the kippot w/the slogan.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com