tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8030144.post4203536369498389255..comments2023-10-29T11:50:25.742+02:00Comments on My Obiter Dicta: Develop Modern Orthodoxy in IsraelJeffrey R. Woolfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11315625918870195028noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8030144.post-42197613491642686592008-03-05T20:32:00.000+02:002008-03-05T20:32:00.000+02:00At the core there is a need to come to grips with ...At the core there is a need to come to grips with two key issues:<BR/><BR/>1)The definition of what is meant by "Torah U'Madda" - In a completely oversimplification: do we define it as the permission to study in both worlds, or as the effort to apply the best of Madda to Torah Scholarship and not ignore the consequences.<BR/><BR/>2)In an increasingly educated society - a secularly educated society with active literary, cultural, and artistic components, how is Orthodoxy to speak? How does Modern Orthodox address the increasing intellectual sophistication of a population when the exemplars from Israel (YU requires a University BA and an MA in course towards semicha) do not have a University degree? There has been too much pointless verbage which passes for sophistication, and too little creativity or serious engagement in deep inquiry that is multi-disciplinary in its contibution to learning.rav Ken Leitnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03812236701598738871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8030144.post-38727788972798166202008-02-24T18:27:00.000+02:002008-02-24T18:27:00.000+02:00Responding to Bar Kochba, I live here too and I do...Responding to Bar Kochba, I live here too and I don't think it's much of an exaggeration. Even though there has been a veritable explosion of interest by the Religious Zionist rabbinate in the general Israeli populace over the past 5-6 years, this is still relatively recent and is strongly linked to a sense of failure in YESHA ("the people weren't with us because we didn't make them realize how right we are"). Thus activities like Panim el-Panim, which were of course the most intense just before an election...<BR/><BR/>As for the Garinim Torani'im, that is a very mixed bag. There are some incredible success stories (e.g. Lod and a few others) but the more typical activity is not nearly as positive, and is often quite harmful davka to local religious communities and to religious-secular relations.<BR/><BR/>The more typical activity (unlike Lod) is simply to plant a kollel or yeshiva in a city. If our discussion here is of Modern Orthodoxy, then these often try to push policies on the local dati communities that many dati people do not really want. You won't find them pushing for excellence in secular education at local dati schools to attract a wider populace, but you will often find them building a cheder track to minimize secular education and keep their children away from others. You may even find them actively building higher walls between people: I once tried to have a local Bnei Akiva do joint programs with secular youth groups. The program crashed because the snif BA was controlled by the local garin Torani, who vetoed it. Why? Because meeting secular groups also involved boys and girls being together for the activity...<BR/><BR/>The Garinim Torani'im are proof that just like you can build a yeshivah on a hilltop in Samaria and remain irrelevant to Am Yisrael, so too can you build a yeshivah in the middle of a city and remain equally irrelevant.<BR/><BR/>Things are indeed changing though, and the wider Israeli populace is more and more on the radar screen. But the "outreach programs all over the country" have a strong charedi mentality despite their supposedly "Zionist" or Kookian orientation.<BR/><BR/>So even if things are changing, that has very little to do with Modern Orthodoxy, which was the real topic of the post.Seth (Avi) Kadish · אבי קדישhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03255657632590292304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8030144.post-11762278281039892622008-02-23T19:52:00.000+02:002008-02-23T19:52:00.000+02:00I can't understand how you, someone who lives in I...I can't understand how you, someone who lives in Israel, is repeating the canard that "all the Religious Zionist camp cares about is YESHA". You certainly know that is NOT the case, as important as YESHA is. I am certain you are aware of the garinim Toraniim that are going up all over the country. I am sure you are aware of all the educational institutions affiliated with Religious Zionism that are found all over the country. You are certainly know about all the outreach programs that are going on all over the country.<BR/>I should also point out that the YU crowd in Israel has supported the MIZRACHI/MAFDAL political machine in Israel for years, and they were primary supporters of the Chief Rabbinate and the whole religious establishment that chooses the local rabbinate in every town without reference to the wishes or needs of the local religious and non-religious populations.<BR/>The fact is there is a tremendous need for reform and ALL the religious community in all its various denominations have something to contribute.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8030144.post-18650720523476232892008-02-21T18:37:00.000+02:002008-02-21T18:37:00.000+02:00I find the juxtaposition of this post and the post...I find the juxtaposition of this post and the post comparing Israel to Kosovo to be interesting, as they both seem to be based on the fact that Jews of a certain stripe have tended to cluster together in small enclaves in Israel, rather than trying to increase their power by increasing their surface coverage (to say nothing of those like myself who are still outside of the playing field altogether).Josh M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14414532577328945154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8030144.post-90125764494556555762008-02-21T14:50:00.000+02:002008-02-21T14:50:00.000+02:00Hi Rabbi Woolf,I agree with your analysis of the p...Hi Rabbi Woolf,<BR/><BR/>I agree with your analysis of the problem, and like you have been striving ceaselessly for years to try to create something positive in this direction (with limited success so far). Nevertheless, there are all kinds of interesting efforts going on, even apart from what you mention, including a number of efforts you might not be aware of.<BR/><BR/>In my opinion, the primary cause is the lack in Israel of the most important element of Yeshiva University. And by this I mean neither the "Yeshiva" nor the "University" but rather the common backbone of both, namely the fact that for generations YU has provided the rabbinic leadership for Modern Orthodox communities all over the diaspora. There is absolutely nothing like this in Israel, and the average Israeli has little hope to find any sort of Modern Orthodox rabbi or community to welcome him in the city or town that he lives in.<BR/><BR/>Even for someone dati this hardly exists. Imagine: A YU graduate who goes to law school has a pretty good chance of marrying and raising a family in a community where the rabbi will be YU musmakh! But in Israel, someone who learned in a yeshivat hesder (or at BIU) has very little chance that his eventual rav will be a musmakh of his institution, or even someone with whom he will be able to see eye-to-eye on basic issues. Unless of course he lives on a yishuv, where his community will by definition not be directly available to Israel society at large.<BR/><BR/>Such rabbis and communities simply don't exist in most parts of "real" Israel, i.e. in the cities and towns that are not heavily religious (and also not heavily "Anglo"). The charedim are there in force to influence society in any way possible, as are the pseudo-charedim (chardal), but not Yeshivat Har Etzion or BIU.<BR/><BR/>And if the dati'im can't find it, all the more so for the hilonim. Especially because even for the few lucky places where such communities do exist, they don't often see a major value in trying to be attractive to the wider public.<BR/><BR/>For some of my ideas, please see this page:<BR/>http://skadish1.googlepages.com/open-torah<BR/><BR/>My wife (Sheri) sends regards.<BR/><BR/>Seth KadishSeth (Avi) Kadish · אבי קדישhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03255657632590292304noreply@blogger.com