Monday, February 06, 2006

Please, Please Read This!

David Bogner (aka Treppenwitz) has said exactly what needed to be said. Owing to the fact that it is he who said it, I hope the skeptics will hold their tongues.

What he didn't say, but I will, is: מיר וועלען זיי איבער לעבען ie 'We will survive them!' (You cannot know how it breaks my heart to have to say that about other Jews.)


Gil Student said...

I'm an outsider, commenting from far away. I don't live in your community.

However, Treppenwitz's claim that:
"Make no mistake, there are religious fanatics among the Jews in the settler camp. But these zealots are a tiny minority who have been 'elected' as representatives of all religious Zionists by those for whom organized Jewish observance of any sort is anathema."

seems entirely contrary to what I've been observing for at least the past decade. The extremists have been the loudest voices in the FRUM media, whether it be Arutz Sheva or The Jewish Press. R. Shlomo Aviner had been somewhat side-stepped for a long time because of his position on the Temple Mount, and he is by no means a moderate. And now, after the Disengagement, he seems to be entirely marginalized. People have been flirting in written media with Kahanism for many years, albeit cautiously avoiding going all the way. But now it is impossible to publicly object to claims that "Kahane Tzadak" without being lambasted.

I guess the question is whether the Yesha Council qualifies as a tiny minority appointed by the anti-religious media. I find that hard to believe.

Again, I fully admit to being an outsider. Please prove me (and R. Yitzhak Blua's article in Tradition a few years ago) wrong.

Tzemach Atlas said...

Gil, you are such a square.

Gil Student said...


treppenwitz said...

GIl... It is not my intention nor my responsibility to prove you or anyone wrong or right. That is an arrogant way to argue; state a position and then maintain it's correctness until someone can 'prove' it incorrect. It doesn't take a very big leap of reason to figure out that the loudest voices are not necessarily representative of the majority. There are very loud voices on both the left and right that both mainstreams cringe to hear. Your position on the outside may or may not be contributing to your lack of information, but rest assured there are plenty of people here who are willfully ignoring hard facts in order to maintain their worldview intact. You seem savvy enough to understand the concept of the squeaky wheel.

Anonymous said...

one important difference between gil and trep is the geographic/cultural distance between them.

gil stated his position based on what he has seen/read/experienced from a distance; ein le-dayan ella mah she-einav ro-os. in fact, in one way or another kahane-ism is endorsed (is this necessarily a bad thing?).
for him to change a position developed over years, of course he needs to be proven wrong.
(so gil, when are you coming? no excuses!)

trep is up close and personal, living in israel. he knows that in the middle east, what you see is never what you get. he knows of the blatant and shameless corruption and inefficiency that goes on. even the press in israel is inflammatory with clear editorial bias in news articles. they use a writing style and rhetoric, that would in and of itself be seen as its own worst argument in an american forum or op-ed page.

that being said, treps emotionalism rachets up his rhetoric to be flirting with the truth.
civil disobedience does *not* include violence such as hurling rocks etc. -- which we all know can kill -- at state-representing soldiers. this being the case, i too would give an order which would defend my men at the expense of those disobeying the law.

effie eitams injury remains very sketchy, based on the videos (still, see above about getting what you see, though this cuts both ways...).

extremism in the dati-leumi camp has been growing for years, under the influence of merkaz harav.
if in fact there are only a few extremists out there are trep would hold, then why cant the yesha council stop them? either yesha is ineffectual, or in cahoots with them. either way, the situation is out of control.

that olmert does not have anywhere near the capability to lead that sharon had is not even a question.
did he use amona as a means to further his political career? i wish i could respond with an unequivocal no.

but the situation is not good -- when is it good in israel? -- and the settlers are angry. who can blame them.
still, there is a way to do things, and amona, on either side of the fence was not it.

ABZ said...

Gil knows where to find Moshe Koppel's article on "Mamlachtiut as a Tool of Oppression". It's been linked to on Hirhurim in the past. He doesn't have to read the updated version in Hebrew that just came out - the old one is good enough. It will explain why Yitzi Blau is wrong.

The Gutman Report results are out there. The Kulturkapf was foreseen.

Just like "normative" Judaism threw in their lot with the "zealots" at the time of Hanuka, it's obvious that they will do the same this time. Of course there are two Orthodox groups that refuse to see this:
1) Left wing Mamlachti MO Jews who will throw in their lot with the brit historit and stay with the ruling elite come hell or high water; and, 2) LW Haredi Jews who think the hammer (and horses) will never drop on them as long as they do their shtadlanus at the poritz. Well, I saw the cavalry charge at the Bar-Ilan St. demonstration on Shabbat a few years ago, and it was just as hard (if not more vicious) than at the Zu Artzenu (or even Amona) demostrations - it just wasn't reported as widely. The forces of evil won't stop with the settlers.

The fact that Gil could even mis-interpret the statement above and conflate the description of fanatics with the Yesha Council just shows how far removed Webster Avenue is from the reality on the ground here. Most of the Yesha Council is as mamlachti as it gets these days.