Tuesday, August 16, 2005

Is This Our Future?

QED, a neighbor of mine, is one of the most thoughtful blogs I know. It has a wealth of information on politics, history and life in general. Today he posted the secret fear that haunts many of us here. The entire posting is a must read. I"ll highlight some key paragraphs:

With the disengagement going into full swing, I can not shake the feeling that we are going to retreat all the way to the Green Line, no exceptions, just as the Europeans desire. This includes, for the uninitiated - the entire Old City, Ramat Eshkol, the Mt. Scopus part of Hebrew University, part of road no. 1 and so forth. This also means that "concensus" settlments such as Gush Etzion, Ma'aleh Edumim, will be on the chopping block as well. This Jewish population living across the Green Line is circa 400,000. Kicking them out will create a human disaster that will make the disengagement look like a cake walk.

I recently expressed this fear with an acquaintance, who told me that Gush Etzion was part of the "concensus" and thus won't be removed. To this I replied that it used to be

a concensus that Jerusalem should be undivided - now it's up for grabs. Apparently,
the "demographic demon" means that we must forfeit even unpopulated areas like Latrun, or areas that contain archaeological remains of supreme national importance,
like Silwan/City of David.
Nevertheless, the fact that so much of the intelligentsia and the public probably equates eveything across the Green Line as equally illegitimate - even when this is not so, as I have tried to explain - depresses me to no end. It would seem that even Jerusalem has ceased to be of much importance, and so the "Israeli" has beaten the "Jew". Ben-Gurion must be rolling around in his grave, although I'm sure many are now dancing on our grave.

Was this why we fought, was this why over 20,000 people died in the various wars? So that we could assimilate differently, if as "Israeli" or "Jew-Arab" or "Yiddisher"? Was this why we stayed alive for 2,000 years in exile, so that we could do to ourselves what even the worst of our enemies couldn't do - i.e. make the Jews de facto disappear?

Don't know anyone whose said it better.


settler@zion.org said...

I can't believe that there are still people in Gush Etzion that believe the whole "consensus" nonsense!! Yitzchak Rabin said during his first term as PM (i.e. in the mid 1970's) that it wouldn't bother him to have to go to Gsuh Etzion and pass a border control. How did this illusion take hold?
The tabu land registration for Kfar Darom is the same as the one for Kfar Etzion - maybe even better as Kfar Darom is a turkish kushan - i.e. land purchase prior to 1917 and even Arafat said those Jews could stay, while Kfar Etzion is mid-1920's under the mandate. The hagana "bravery stories" are pretty similar for both.

דין כפר עציון כדין כפר דרום
דין אפרתה כדין נווה דקלים

mycroft said...

Why should Efrat be part of the "consensus"? I've visited it most recently sometime in 2005.At the end of the day after GWB'd pressure Israel will be lucky to keep the Jewish quarter and maybe the Armenian Quarter for access through the Jaffe Gate. They may be able to keep Maaleh Adumim and parts of Jewish sections. In return Israel would probably have to give some land near Gaza in exchange.
Not what I would like but real politik-if the settlers weren't so greedy and messianic about Gaza-more might have been able to be kept.

Jeffrey said...

My my. Obviously hysteria is not confined to the Right.

May I remind you, my anonymous friend, that it was Yitzhak Rabin who refused to dsmantle one town until the PA gave up terror. That is called negotiations. You might learn the concept.

Second, the epithet 'messianic settler' is a tool to demonize an entire population. Opposition to the retreat from Gaza cuts across sectors of the society. Yes, there are religious messianists in Israel. There are also Social-Democratic fundamentalist messianists who believe that if Israel only gives a little bit more to the Arabs, there will be peace. If you've read my blog, you know that this is an essentially racist position but because it's advocated by the so-called enlightened elite, it becomes 'true.' Such messianism is also lethal.

Third, may I remind you that Yossi Beiin offered exactly what you are setting as red lines to the PLO and it was rejected. The Geneva accords offer more, but only if Israel implements the Right of Return. It is not the intransigence of the settlers that is an issue here. It is the integrity of the Arabs who know what they want and will wait a millenium to receive it.

Finally, the person who lost the chance to take a stand was Sharon. He could have stood up to the US and built the wall further east. He didn't. Instead he buckled under to them and gave the PLO more than even Barak had offered.

Ben said...

Why not force the issue? Now that Sharon feels the need to show that there is some upside to the expulsion, why not start a public campaign to annex Gush Etzion, followed by similar campaigns around Yehuda v'Shomron? Israel can no longer claim to be avoiding unilateral steps, so why not l'chumra as well as l'kula? If the campaign fails, it will alert the public to the situation you fear much earlier.

mycroft said...

NO Israeli government-not Begin's or Shamir's ever annexed a single dunam of land since the initial annexation of surrounding Jerusalem in June 1967.

settler@zion.org said...

Mycroft - You are partially correct. Israel annexed the Golan Heights in the early 1980's. Also, a formal annexation of the territories beyond the partition plan borders of 1947 that were captured in 1948-49, was not accomplished until AFTER the six-day war. This was all in the petition to the court of the northeren Gaza settlements - which were located on land in the DMZ and not part of "gaza" per se - i.e. there is no difference between them and Ashkelon. The court finageled around this but really didn't address it seriously in its decision.

I will also point out that these 3 settlements were WITHIN the security fence - i.e. on the Israeli side. So all those people now driving up the prices in Alfei Menashe and Shaarei Tikva b/c they are on the right side of the fence, and all those people doing the same in Gush Etzion b/c they believe the fence wil include them are in for a rude awakening. They can be "evacuated" as well - just like those in the Northern Gaza settlements. For that matter there could have been no more "consensus" settlements that these 3 - primarily secular, conating residents evacuated from Sinai in 1982, on land that was never part of the "gaza strip" or livged on by arabs, and within the security fence. All gone as I write these words.

Nope - there's no difference at this point between Gush Etzion, the old city of Jerusalem - and frankly no difference between them and parts of Israel that were captured in 1949 but were not allocated to Israel under the partition plan - especially those areas bordering the West Bank and Gaza strip. Jews will one day be kicked out of those areas as well.

Anonymous said...

Jeffery - what you suggest is what Rav Yoel Bin-Nun has repeated ad nauseum. That it was better to support Labor because Rabin promised never to uproot settlements and he would have kept his words. Well we all know what happened to Rabin when he threatened to go back on the Oslo Accords due to the increased terror. The same thing that happened to Motta Gur when he started to get better from his illnes and began actively opposing the Oslo Accords as well. There are no more Labor Hawks - they have all been killed, died, jailed or driven from political life, and now we are witnessing the beginning of the end of the Revisionist hawks as well. If religious zionism can survive the dratsic wound inflicted on the army the last few days (doubtful) then perhaps the state has a fighting chance to see the year 2030.

Jeffrey said...

I am sorry you misunderstood. I disagree with R. Yoel bin Nun, and I have done so since the start of Oslo. Mapai no longer exists (witness that the PM is the last Mapainik). Labor=Meretz=Hadash. The Israeli Left has sophisticated itself to death and is no longer either Zionist or substantively Jewish.
Therein lies the challenge. We MUST return to the field and teach Torah and re-judaize this country. I, like Rav Medan, am bitterly disappointed in the failure of dialogue with the Leftist elite. I feel personally betrayed by the likes of Avirama Golan, Gidon Samet, Yaron London and others with whom I personally sat and learned Torah not so long ago. Leftist dogma is just too strong an Orthodoxy to be countered by reason.
That does not, however, mean that we should isolate ourselves as Rav Medan (and others) suggest. On the contrary, if we rejudaize the country and if we keep up a presence in the mainstream media, we have a chance to save Israel before the threat of Muslim belief and determination.

settler@zion.org said...

Yes - but how do we do this? As you yourself have point out recently, it seems that most religious elemnents in the mainstream media ultimately are co-opted by the left. The joint, high profile events with organizations such as Neemanei Torah V'avoda - such as the kinnot on Tisha B'Av with Yonatan Bassi, Bin-Nun, Rav Shagar and other assorted leftists, are basically a farce. They attract 100 people and get lots of media attention while 5,000 people say kinot on Herodian and 5,000 other people eat pancakes on Sheinkin St.

How do we do what you suggest without turning into organizations such as Neemanei Torah V'Avoda, Tzionut Datit Realit, Meimad, etc. - which are basically just front organizations for the left who can't allow anything out of their control?